HC#40 DualSense Haptics with Danny Grant, inventor of the adaptive trigger
Podcast Link:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/7swQVfAlCcdU4FAv4pzXiM?si=00e002bcdc584ce7
In this episode, we sit down with Danny Grant, a technology visionary who has a proven record of innovation and a passion for building a better future. For over 20 years Danny was Innovation Program Director at Immersion Corp, while currently, he is founding partner and CTO at Innovobot. We sat down with Danny to talk haptics, innovation and challenges when it comes to pushing novel tech.
About Danny Grant
Danny Grant is a well-known figure in the haptics industry, with a strong background in electrical engineering and a PhD focused on developing shape memory alloy actuators for robotics. He got started at the Center for Intelligent Machines at McGill University, under the guidance of Vincent Hayward, a brilliant mind in the field. After graduation, Danny joined a start-up called Haptic Technologies in Montreal, which aimed to build a cost-effective pantograph for the CAD market and the visually impaired. However, the company was soon acquired by Immersion Corporation, which led to a 20-year relationship with Immersion's R&D center in Montreal. During this time, Danny and his team developed various haptic devices and algorithms, which Immersion has since licensed out to companies around the world. Danny's passion for haptics is evident in his work, and he is honored to be a part of a community that shares his enthusiasm for this exciting field. Today, Danny is founding partner and CTO at Innovobot Resonance Ventures.
Danny Grant's Favorite Haptic Experience
Danny has been at the forefront of haptics for a long time and has developed many internal demonstrations that never made it out into the world. However, he cites his best example as being in the VR space, particularly with devices that use a variety of haptic modalities. While the pantograph was an impressive two-degree-of-freedom planar device, one of the best demos Danny saw in the early days was Vincent's work which showed how lateral forces could create the illusion of going up or down. Danny himself performed that user test and found that people couldn't tell the difference between moving over a bump and moving over a real bump. He then played with the idea of using perceptual tricks to limit the specifications of the motor, which helped make it lower cost and ultimately led to the success of the PlayStation 5 controller. Danny had been trying to displace the dual shock controller for years, and he believes that the PlayStation 5 was successful because of its maximized experience with cost.
Behind the DuelSense controller, a story of endurance
The DualSense controller is a revolutionary game controller that was developed for the PlayStation 5. The DualSense boasts two wide-band vibrotactile actuators, as well as the innovative adaptive triggers. This technology pushes back on the index finger and provides feedback that is both compliant and forceful, resulting in a truly haptic experience. Danny, an expert in haptic technology and a passionate gamer, developed the original design for this controller, but Sony created their own version with some modifications. Despite this, the development of the DualSense controller was an arduous journey, and Danny spent a lot of time developing many different prototypes.
Danny's primary goal was to displace the DualShock controller, and he believed that the haptic experience should be developed without any constraints. To achieve this, he recognized the need for all aspects of the user experience, including the actuators, software, firmware, and user experience, to be perfectly integrated. The team spent a lot of time developing the trigger, which was the main focus of the controller. The initial prototype used two high-powered MAXON motors, which created clicks, sensations, and springs that were incredible. However, cost was an issue, so they moved away from that and decided to engage another modality. They needed to have kinesthetics and figure out a way to make a low-cost motor that could be adapted. The result was the innovative adaptive triggers, which added a new level of immersion to the gaming experience.
Overall, the development of the DualSense controller was a success, and it showcases the potential of haptic technology in the gaming industry. The journey to get there was challenging, but Danny's commitment to developing a haptic experience without any constraints was crucial. The DualSense controller has increased the dynamic range of the PlayStation controller and provides a haptic experience that is unparalleled in the industry.
Innovation challenges and their key takeaways
Developing haptic technology presents unique challenges that go beyond just technological innovation. Danny suggests that rapid prototyping and iteration are essential to removing assumptions quickly and creating a successful user experience. However, getting a product to market also involves considerations outside of technology, such as business, finance, and legal issues. Cost is also a significant factor in developing custom actuators, controllers, and other devices. Sometimes, even seemingly small things like a shielded USB cable can impact sales and consumer confusion. On the technology side, creating a "wow" experience that leaves users wanting more is crucial. The success of PlayStation Five and adaptive trigger demos demonstrate the importance of getting to that "wow" moment. In short, developing haptic technology requires a multifaceted approach that considers both the technical and non-technical aspects of bringing a product to market.
The future of gaming tech
Danny envisions a future of haptic technology in gaming that is rich and immersive, with diverse haptic modalities and touchpoints creating an unforgettable experience for players. He acknowledges that there is a tradeoff between realism and technological feasibility, but believes that congruent cues that align with what players see can create a powerful experience that fully immerses the user in the game.
The gradual shift from traditional controllers to more interactive devices is a tricky prospect. While controllers will continue to be an important interface for gaming, there is potential for more immersive experiences using haptic technology. Swipe gestures and other movements can add depth to games, allowing for greater agency and control. However, there is a learning curve to using these new interfaces, and full-hand operation can be exhausting over extended periods. Nonetheless, the potential for haptic technology in gaming is clear, as it is a crucial aspect of achieving a full holodeck experience in VR. While it remains to be seen how long it will take for haptic interfaces to become mainstream, there is no doubt that they will eventually succeed. Our job as innovators in the field is to accelerate the process and bring this technology to gamers sooner rather than later.
Danny's vision for the future of haptic technology in gaming is one where both controllers and more interactive devices like gloves coexist to create an immersive and enjoyable gaming experience. He believes that this split in how controllers are used will continue to evolve, with some games requiring more hand interaction and others relying more heavily on controllers. Overall, Danny sees great potential for haptic technology to enhance the gaming experience and create a new level of immersion for players.
Haptic complexity vs. haptic experience
Danny discusses the complexity of interfaces and how they can impact the gaming experience. He notes that while some mobile games have only two inputs, others, like tennis games, require different inputs based on the length of the player's duration to impact their backswing. Danny enjoys challenging games that require mental skills, and he believes that this trend of increased complexity will continue. He argues that simple interfaces limit a player's control and fulfillment, while more challenging interfaces give them a greater sense of agency. Additionally, Danny points out that the output of haptic feedback is another important consideration for the future of gaming. He believes that more research is needed to understand the full potential of haptic technology, especially as actuator technology improves and allows for greater spatial and pinpoint precision.
AI for creating the haptic experiences of the future
Danny discussed the current challenges in the haptics industry, particularly the need for new content creation to support the development of haptic devices. He pointed out that AI can play a significant role in addressing this challenge, specifically in the design chain by automating the process of getting old content to work with new devices. Danny is also curious about the potential of AI in creating haptic effects and sees possibilities in training AI on existing content such as movies from companies like Dbox. Overall, he believes that AI has great potential in the haptics industry, particularly in content creation, and looks forward to seeing how it will continue to impact the industry in the future.
Advice from a veteran in the field
Danny explains that in the field of haptics, one cannot stay confined to their area of expertise. Collaboration with experts from different fields is essential. Being bold and persistent is also crucial. Danny gives an example of the trigger design, which was initially deemed expensive and unrealistic, but the team persisted until they achieved a "wow" experience. He believes that if you feel that your idea is a "10 on 10", then you should go for it and get it out there.
We want to express our sincere gratitude to Danny Grant for taking the time to share his insights on haptics and the future of user interfaces with us. His experience and expertise in the field have provided valuable perspectives on the challenges and opportunities facing developers, innovators, designers, and users alike. We appreciate his thoughtful responses and his willingness to engage in a stimulating conversation about the fascinating world of haptic technology. Thank you, Danny!
